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Pre-Game Discussion
Mike Haggett made this email announcement on Wednesday, November 3rd.
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This is going out to some people that I talked about doing Ars Magica with at Council and subsequently. If you'd like to be taken off any future mailings, let me know. If you have anyone else you think might be interested, go ahead and forward this to them; chances are I just don't have their e-mail 
I am planning on running an Ars Magica game to start after the New Year. I hope to play once or twice a month; day and times to be decided by the participating players. Location to be determined, but the Studio, Zombie Planet, or someplace else are all possibilities. We would be using the 5th edition rules; they are supposed to be out this month. They are likely to be closest to 4th edition. If we have 4 or more players, I am inclined to start everyone at a new covenant; this can be a tough proposition but in many ways is rewarding over the long haul. With 3 or fewer, I would be inclined to have people join an already established covenant.
The campaign itself will be set in the Loch Leglean tribunal (Scotland) and will likely begin in the early 12th century, around 1120. The area I am looking at was known earlier as Dal Riada and is noted for the large number of Irish settlers. It abuts the Highlands and is not far from the Lowlands; its location makes it a fitting locale for one of the themes of the campaign, that of the clash and intermingling of cultures.
Scotland at this time had a variety of peoples living in it. In the south were a mixture of Scots-Celts and Anglo-Normans; this area would come increasingly to resemble the feudal style of life in Britain to the south. In the Highlands lived the scots-pictish tribes, not yet formed into the clans they would later become, but a fierce and independent bunch of folks. On the west coast were Irish settlers. And in the north and on the offshore islands were the Norse settlers who had come to stay following their raiding.
Similarly, Loch Leglean is a crossroads of sorts. The Lowland covenants play the game of politics in a way that would not be unusual to the magi of France or England. But Loch Leglean has many magi and over half of them come from House Ex Miscellanea. Over one-quarter of the total magi associated with the tribunal are not affiliated with any covenant....yet they retain their voting rights. Many of the House Ex Miscellanea magi are from an old Pictish tradition of magic that has no Hermetic roots whatsoever. The mysterious Order of Odin, the organization that bedevils the Order of Hermes throughout its northern reaches, is rumored to be particularly active amongst the Norse settlements.
Scotland is a backwater of Europe. Many of the amenities that magi in more civilized areas take for granted (such as the availability of decent laboratory equipment) are simply unavailable, or only at great cost. But the area is rich in raw magic, as faeries and and other beasts still roam the area.
This won't be an easy place to play, but I am hoping it will be rewarding.
If you have questions, or feedback, let me know.
Thanks!
Re: Pre-Game Discussion
I am up for the game, but as I have no knowledge of the rules I will stay out this convo.
Atlas Games 5th Edition AM site
The URL for the 5th edition rules of Ars Magica are:
http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/index.html
They should be available by the end of the month. They will also be available for a limited time for $25 in hardcover; local game stores can likely take orders for these and get you a good price.
Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Mike Haggett: Monday the 8th, 7pm...
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I had thought about this; if there is an older character, he/she is likely
to be an NPC, as in CHMs game. I hesitate to add an older NPC if only for
the reason they will likely be called upon to face the deadly
menaces.....something the players should be encouraged to handle in a Spring
Covenant.
What I would encourage the players to do, is come up with a way of governing
the covenant themselves--I actually find this more entertaining, as it can
lead to all sorts of roleplaying between the characters, as they have their
own agendas, etc. Some campaigns I have done the covenants have drawn up
formal agreements; this tends to work best. Other times, players have sort
of made things up as they go on.
In any event, I want to see the new rules before committing to anything. I
am hoping to have an organizational sometime in December or early January.
Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Mark Russman...
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Lord Cheng,
Nice idea, but it causes an imbalance in the game...
'Joe' is the oldest mage...he therefore is the 'Boss'. Who wants to have to
follow all of 'Joe's" orders???? If that's so, why should I play? Why not
just hand over my character and let 'Joe's' owner run him...
Your not talking about an 'elected' or 'heroic' leader....your talking about
rule by the most powerful. To refer back to your D&D example:
Dave starts out with a 0 level Cavalier (d4+1 hps).
Swampy starts out with a 9th level Duelist.
Ben starts out with a 12th level Cleric.
I start out with an 18th level Mage.
Well, it doesn't look like Dave will be able to go on this adventure (we are
attacking the Demon Lord that has invaded the next castle over)...the
emanations from the Demon will kill him outright...BUT, he can bring his
(I'm stretching here) 3rd level fighter (companion)...he will last at least
two rounds...
Does that sound like fun? In addition, when I tell you to do something, you
don't have any choice, so shut up and do it....
Oh yeah, the penalties: (" Give me your Vis", "Why?" "Because I said
so..." ) it doesn't really matter much what they are, because the more
advanced character will 'flame' the junior one in just about all
cases...otherwise it wasn't worth the trouble in the first place.
Extreme case, of course.
Inequity due to excellent or poor play is fine, but starting that way
isn't...IMO.
Take the campaign to the logical conclusion:
The character that started at high level, will get even more powerful (your
admission- "And, realistically, they probably won't catch up too much.
They'll always be the junior mages."), and the others will not catch up.
Does the campaign end when that character reaches "20th" level??? Will the
campaign last that long? Will it continue past that point? Will that mean
the character will suffer ultimate death, and a new 'young' character will
be made up? This will force that person to play with a '1st level'
character while everyone else is 18th....not much fun there. If the campaign
ends when character 'A' reaches 20th, isn't that unfair to the rest???
I think that system has too many holes. The whole idea of adventure gaming
is to have to cooperate to accomplish your goals...if one character is
higher level, it unbalances the equation...he's too powerful for the easy
stuff, and can't get any/enough help on the hard stuff.
I don't find your assumptions that a party of unequals would work. I find
the exact opposite true...
[I am not going to 'shovel your shit' for the next 70 years...I'll go
somewhere else...with my buddy's 'Doorknob' and 'Wingnut'. Wingnut has even
said his cousin 'Doohicky', who graduated with him, wants to strike out with
us...(etc)]
..As for the ""but the flaw was the necessity to defer to the older
mages.""...
The older mages in CHM's game, very rarely intervened in our affairs. In
fact, we had to practically kick them to get them to do
something....anything. I felt the fact we had to 'defer' to nobles, church
and the order was by far more of a pain than the older mages.
As for 'Unreal' scenarios, that's up to the GM....if he puts out a
dragon...you don't have to go kill it. You should consider if you CAN. If
you think you can, and die horribly, OH WELL!. I guess that suck for your
character...get rolling. If the GM puts out 10 Kobolds, how much fun would
that be for your 10th level character???? The rest of us will just sit back
and watch...after all we don't need to risk getting killed while 'Superman'
is here. I think I should mention that in this case, the High level
character would be getting more experience too....
We would be just replacing our Non-interfering masters with an active
master.
Just my $3.50
Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Dave Cheng...
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With all due respect to Mark, I still think my idea is better. I really liked how Charles' setup didn't require us to all start with no resources, but the flaw was the necessity to defer to the older mages.
With this scenario, we get our hands held for 10 years. Then, we're suddenly a Spring covenant with a bunch of 30-year-olds. No established pecking order.
Look at it from a D&D point of view...
Many games start out with "all you young 1st level characters meet and start an adventuring group. As GM, I'll make sure you only run into things that 1st level characters can handle." This might be good in making everyone feel equal, but it doesn't make that much sense.
It's more realistic to have a scenario where a 6th level guy decides to start a new band. He gets a couple of friends who are 4th-6th, a couple of proven guys 2nd-3rd, and a few fresh 1st level guys who know they have to do the scut work.
I think this setup is far more organic, and realistic. I think it's better that not all the characters start at newbies.
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I had a new thought on how to pull this off, related to one of last night's thoughts.
Let's say Mike determines he wants the "average" PC mage to have 20 years experience (lets call that age 40).
Mages who are fresh from apprenticeship at age 20 get a virtue/flaw "discount":
Perhaps 10 virtue points for 6 flaw points.
Mages age 30 get 10 virtue pts for 8 flaw points.
Mages age 40 gare even up.
Mages age 50 need 12 flaw points for 10 virtue points.
Mages age 60 need 14 flaw points for 10 virtue points.
Mike could decide limits on how many characters could be in whatever age bracket. He could also set the "even up" point wherever he wanted the average to be.
The young guys get a very favorable virtue/flaw ratio, but they start the game underpowered magic-wise. And, realistically, they probably won't catch up too much. They'll always be the junior mages.
The old guys get a lot more magic, but they pay the price. They have more aches and pains, and almost certainly more responsibility too.
However, all this might be moot. Let's see the new rules for pre-generating older mages. If they're crap, this whole idea might all fall apart. Unless we want to write our own rules.
-DC
Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Mark Russman replies Monday, November 8th.
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Opinion: I think starting the Magi at different levels is a bad idea....
We could have one or two VERY old magus to help start the place up. Due to
their ancient ages, they pass quickly...10yrs?
Who is in anyway?
Re: Pre-Game Discussion
David Cheng replies on Sunday, November 7th.
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I am planning on running an Ars Magica game to start after the New Year. [...] If we have 4 or more players, I am inclined to start everyone at a new covenant; this can be a tough proposition but in many ways is rewarding over the long haul. With 3 or fewer, I would be inclined to have people join an already established covenant.
I was browsing the Atlas Games web site, reading about the improvements in the new edition. One of the things they specifically mention is that the system for generating older, more experienced mages during character creation is much improved.
This could allow us the benefit of establishing a new covenant, but not have the huge liability of everyone starting young and weak (as mages go).
We could work out some kind of system to determine who plays the older mages. Maybe the players negotiate? Roll dice? Mike decides by GM fiat? Whatever.
Maybe there could be a "cost" for age and power. Extra liabilities? Extra time/political commitments pulling you away from lab time? Evil nasty stuff that Mike thinks up?
I think a new covenant makes much more sense if it has an established pecking order of seniority and authority right from the start.
FYI, I have a character concept in mind. If given my choice, I would start with a mage with perhaps only 5-15 years beyond graduation from apprenticeship.
-DC
p.s. Here is the link for the web page talking about AM 5th Edition:
http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/
Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Dave,
We could go with that flaw
Or even better, perhaps a story flaw that entangles you with sea critters, merrows, or nasty pookhas.... 
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Sorry Dave...I missed that one...right about what???
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
and Mark, Mike is right...
With this character, a girlfriend is a non-issue.
Perhaps more appropriate would be the Major Flaw of Reputation +5 "Has unnatural relations with sea creatures"?
-DC
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Sure, send it, but I probably can't get it posted until after I return.
-DC
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
I have an Excel spread sheet for a character sheet. It helps add things up and has the points already recorded...
If anyone wants it, let me know.
Dave, I can send it to you for posting...
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Dave:
There are some pretty ugly faeries (and the Faerie blood major and minor flaws have a selection of faerie-types that could cover this) so that would seem likely.
Elementals are a kind of estoeric knowledge and more common to middle eastern traditions; that being said, there are of course spirits, etc. that could replace that. I'd probably stick with faerie blood tho, especially if you come from around the local area.
Blatant Gift is a Major flaw in the new system and will pretty much prevent the character from interacting with mundanes. The regular Gift makes it fairly difficult, but not impossible. I would think seriously before you take it.
There is, of course, a vast quantity of streams, lakes, and the ocean as well, so a water familiar isn't out of the question. Perhaps more versatile would be something like a bird that hunts fish, like a Skua. If you want something more benign, maybe a duck?
If you go with the Blatant Gift, the girlfriend is of course a moot point unless you find a willing maga who is inclined to keep her Parma up at all times
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Dave,
Wouldn't that mean his girl friend would smell like fish too?
Also : My character will have 'Aegis of the Hearth'.
A lttle important detail.
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
I had a new idea just today:
"The Fishmaster"
High Animal art
Next-best art would be Aquam
Affinity with Fish Magic
His flaky, scaly skin acts as a personal source of Animal Vis
Maybe he could even summon Water elementals?
Maybe his father was a merman, making him part Faerie?
Flaws:
Blatant Gift
Cursed with big, bulging eyes
Constantly smells of Fish
Of course, he'd have a big magical fish as a familiar.
You may think I'm kidding about this
Or maybe I'll play something else...
-DC
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
I am looking at playing a Bonisagus.
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Ok, heres a question:
What is everyone looking to play??? I tihink it behoves us to figure that out ahead of time...
I am going to play Verditius.
I think Ben is going to play Tytalus.
Everyone?
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Dave, sit down and shut up
. If the Man says its okay, let it be. The group looks like a decent group, so we should be able to work with it.
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Sorry, that was meant in sarcasm...
Also, for the record, I think 8 players is too many. I am willing to sit out if necessary.
-DC
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Follow the limits laid out in the Character Creation rules; at the moment I can't think of any exceptions.
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
So, when you say "For the most part...", which character generation limits can we ignore?...
:twisted:
-DC
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Some guidelines on Magus construction:
For the most part, follow the guidelines in the Character Creation section. These include art scores of no more than 10 and a Parma of 1 straight out of apprenticeship. Make sure you check out the new spell casting (especially mastery skills), lab, and book rules.
Companions should not have any connection to the player's magus; if you wish to have a connection to another player's magus, that is OK with their permission.
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
OK with that. New plan for me - I will be out of town until January 6th, starting this Monday. Soldier on without me!
-DC
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Not sure when Jason will be back, planned to have it shortly after his return. If you all want to meet sooner than that, we can, but I'd like everyone's input.
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
When are we thinking our first campaign planning meeting will be?
Options:
* Meet somewhere on Saturday the 18th.
* Meet somewher some other date.
* Meet somewhere some week night over beverages. Mark, if this was 9 or 10pm, could you make it?
* Not meet in person, but have a conference call. I have a conference call line we can use. All of us would have to incur long-distance phone charges, but no extra fee for the conference feature.
Thoughts?
-DC
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
Dudes,
I am reading through the book; bits and pieces here and there. Some of the changes are pretty significant.
One big example dear to my heart: I guess the designers didn't like people being invulnerable to regular weapons. They've changed "Gift of the Bear's Fortitude" from +10 soak to only +3.
The print is noticably smaller than previous editions. They're packing more info onto each page. I feel my eyes getting a little strained. But the typesetting & design are better than the 3rd edition we've used, and much better than the ugly 4th.
I look forward to our discussion about the campaign.
-DC
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
I stopped by Zombie Planet again after buying the traditional Thanksgiving pies at Grandma's. I couldn't resist taking a closer look at the rulebook, especially the character generation system.
It doesn't look all that different after a brief skim. Characteristics are much more generous than the net +1 that Charles allowed.
The system for older mages is no big deal really. It is just a point allocation for each year to buy skills & spells. I'd have to sit and play with it a bit to get a better feel for it in practice.
-DC
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)New Designer's Note
Atlas Games posted the 3rd out of 4 short pieces from the developer of 5th edition. This covers character generation and 2 subjects that have been somewhat debated here: Virtues and Flaws, and creating older characters. The link again is:
http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/
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)Gruagach
Someone sent me a note regarding magi in the old Pictish tradition, or Gruagach. They are often (but not always) full members of the Order of Hermes.....and yet cannot cast hermetic magic at all. They will, of course, be in the campaign in some form, as they form a very large block of the magi in the tribunal.
I am not sure what rules I will follow to allow them, as the rules have changed quite a bit since they were written up for 3rd edition. I will likely use material from Hedge Magic and other 4th ed. supplements as these will be closest in "feel". Once that is done, it should be possible to allow player character Gruagach if you desire to play one.
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)Re: Pre-Game Discussion
dave wrote
With this scenario, we get our hands held for 10 years. Then, we're suddenly a Spring covenant with a bunch of 30-year-olds. No established pecking order.
the only reason we did not have a pecking order was that we decided to not establish one. certamain or some other custom would be used to determine leadership. the area mike wants to run in is very interesting to me and i feel the very chaotic nature of the tribunal lends it self to a less structured covanant. the other problem that i see is that dave is assuming old = power and responsibillity in the covanant. if you remember charles set very specific guidelines to determine senior mages in his covanant and it was possible for a senior mage to be a begining character if built that way.
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